New Interface, ADAT, AES/EBU, Drum Recording

[Jeff MacdonaldModerator]

Hi Guido,

I primarily record drums and will give you my opinion on your situation:

For interfaces I would highly recommend the Clarett 8PreX - the Air mode is excellent and sounds very much like ISA preamps. I would use one of these and then run the Motu as additional pres using ADAT once you upgrade. I am able to record 16 tracks at a 32 sample buffer with plug-in enabled play back on guide tracks.

If you are going to purchase a snake make sure you get one with decent cable in it, many really cut corners by using very light gauge wire. For cables look for something with 2 conductors that are at least 24 AWG with 95% spiral copper shield with a capacitance per foot rating of between 18 and 26 pf per foot. That will ensure you are getting a good signal back to the preamp. You can't go wrong with Neutrik connectors, and if you need to save REAN are also good, but they won't survive years of use as well.

If you are going to leave the kit in the room while recording other instruments the dimensions of the room itself will really play a huge role in what you need to do to the kit. My old room was 12 x 14 with 8 foot ceilings and I had to pretty much take the kit down so it wouldn't sympathetically vibrate with other instruments while doing critical recordings. My new room is 28' x 34' with 14' ceilings and this is no longer a problem. A nice middle ground will be taking the cymbals off and laying them on a carpet or packing blanket (or putting them in a cymbal bag) and placing a heavy moving blanket on the drums. Always disengage snares when you aren't using the snare drum too, not only does it keep it from vibrating it also makes your resonant head last longer.

For mics I would suggest the following as a great starting point:

Kick: AKG D112, Audix D6 is also great but really geared towards Rock, the Beta 52 has a sound that some people like, I am not one of those people.
Snare: 2x SM57, Audix i5's are great too but more hyper cardiod and build like a tank if you are recording a drummer with poor stick control it might be good to have one on hand.
Rack Toms: Audix D2 - Sennheiser 421's are also great and I use them now and again, but 1 costs as much as 3 Audix mics and I find they need more EQ
Floor Toms: Audix D4 (14" and 16") or D6 (16" or 18")
OH: I prefer LDCs here and love Advanced Audio CM414 - to my ear they sound identical to an AKG 414 and are 389USD each. For SDC check out the oktava MK-012 for and excellent mic that is reasonably priced. If you are able to solder as well the 012's can be upgraded with addition resistors and a new transistor that will bring it inline with a Schoeps cmc6 (at least I couldn't tell the difference in a blind test). I have never tried Lewitt but Warren loves them and that's enough for me to say they are great too.
ROOMS: Get a good pair of mid-market ribbons like the Bumblebee Pro Audio RM-5 or RM-6. These are great for rooms as they keep the cymbals nice and smooth.

What kind of drum kit did you get?

Cheers,

Jeff

[Guido tum SudenKeymaster]

Hi Jeff, thanks a lot, that really helped making final decisions.

The drum set is one of the latest Tama Superstar sets. It's 6 pieces (Toms 10, 12, 14, 16) with snare (the very latest set do not have the snares included anymore) and hardware.
This week the dealer got the complete set of Paiste 2002 with a few precision hi-hats for me for testing. So in the next 14 days I will have to decide on cymbals. The crash will probably be 17" and 20". Maybe 19" but the one on the Paiste website had a ring to it I didn't like, so I'll have to see if they all have that same ring.

Unfortunately my room is only 13' x 10' x 6.5' but the only other recordings I will make most of the time are vocals. Do you think with vocals it might also work if I put felt covers on the cymbals and toms? The room is well treated with bass traps, diffusers and absorbers.

I will have to see if I can translate your cable "numbers" to something more metric. 🙂

As for the Lewitt mics. We're still working on Warren's deal here in Europe, but first steps are made. If it works out I will get the DTP-BEAT-KIT-PRO-7 for < 1000 $ instead of 2000 $. Okay, this is an ad, but still interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExlhWHx1p5g

Could you point me to a website or something about the Oktava upgrade because I already own a matched pair of those.

Cheers,
Guido

[Jeff MacdonaldModerator]

That is a really nice kit! I think you will be very happy with that. The Paiste 2002 cymbals are really nice. What kind of music are you normally recording? I have always found crashes over 18" to be too large to record, as they sustain for far too long. But again, that's just a personal taste thing, but you can't go wrong with Paiste 2002 especially for hats and rides.

I don't think vocals would upset a drum kit that much, but guitar and bass amps certainly will. For vocals a heavy blanket would be more than ideal I would imagine.

I'll see if I can track down some metric conversions for you. The best cables I have found for the price are Digiflex - but they are a Canadian manufacturer so I am unsure of their availability in Europe - the NK2/6 cable they manufacture is on-par with Mogami cable and they use Neutrik XLRs for all the connectors and are about $1CAD per foot for assembled cables, it gets considerably cheaper if you buy bulk cable and make your own as well.

The Lewitt mics do look excellent! I am going to have to try those out at some point soon.

The Oktava mod I have is from an old Recording magazine, I will track it down tonight and scan it for you. The mod doesn't seem to be floating around on the net anymore as there are too many people making money from it.

Cheers,

Jeff

[Guido tum SudenKeymaster]

That's good to know.
Tomorrow I will decide for cymbals. I was looking for the thin ones. They start at 16".
I also want the two of them to be at least a fourth (if you can call it that with cymbals) apart. That would then be 16" and 19".

As for the music: Myself I will probably play the drums for the rehearsal recording I make of the four musicals I wrote, as soon as they will be played at the school were I'm working at as a musics teacher, again. But I'm sure we will make some recordings with the drummer of my band as well. For example of this song we've only got this live recording: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apqGZUKnkTo or this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtBr0J7y-Ck

My “local” music store usually solders cables for their costumers. They only use Neutrik plugs and Klotz cable.
I just found out that Klotz show AWG and pF/ft on their website: https://shop.klotz-ais.com/shop/5485-bulk-cables.html?mode=list

Cheers,
Guido

• This reply was modified 6 years ago by Guido tum Suden.
• This reply was modified 6 years ago by Guido tum Suden.

[Jeff MacdonaldModerator]

That's an interesting concept on the crash cymbals. I have yet to consider intervals on crashes, but will often choose a ride cymbal that has a fundamental note that is in key with the song. Collecting ride cymbals has become an expensive hobby. I will certainly have to start experimenting with intervals on crash cymbals. What is your reasoning behind having them a fourth apart? I agree with you that thin crashes are the way to go, but a word of caution - make sure that if you are letting other drummers play them they know how to properly strike across a crash cymbal. I have lost a few in my time to drummers who strike straight down and crack thin cymbals.

That Klotz cable looks like excellent quality cable. Combined with Neutrik XLRs, you'll have extremely high quality and long lasting cables. Just make sure you have at least one made with a 90-degree (right-angle) female XLR for times where you might not have much room tucking a mic in under a hi-hat or low cymbal.

I look forward to hearing your musicals once you get them recorded. I really enjoyed the youtube songs, that is a very interesting kit setup your drummer uses. It's got a lot of interesting elements. Also there are some instruments I haven't seen before being played as well, very cool stuff!

Cheers,

Jeff

[Guido tum SudenKeymaster]

I got the complete drum set yesterday.
I mainly let the dealer (who's a known drummer here, also for loaning out excellent sounding sets) help with the cymbals and now the crashes are not as far apart as I wished, but theses just sounded better.
Everything's from the 2002 series.
– Hi-Hat 14" Heavy
– 16" Thin Crash
– 17" Thin Crash
– 20" Heavy Ride (I'm not sure about this one concerning recording, its sustain just goes on and on).

Lacking the microphones I will do some test recordings with my 2 Oktavias today.

Cheers,
Guido

[Jeff MacdonaldModerator]

I can't wait to hear it! Some pictures would be wonderful to see too if you take any. I have a 22" 2002 Heavy ride and the wash from that seems to blend really nicely into everything else. I have always been partial to larger diameter rides and heavier ones as I play 2B sticks and strike pretty hard, but the 2002 ride doesn't seem to become overbearing even when played hard.

You got yourself an amazing setup!

Cheers,

Jeff

[Guido tum SudenKeymaster]

Okay, first impressions,

This is just my two Oktava MK 012 in ORTF 2½ Sticks above snare once without muffle rings and once with.
Beware! Keyboarder (me) tries playing drums. 🙂

Cheers,
Guido

[Guido tum SudenKeymaster]

And some pictures, phone made, indoors, so, well…

[Jeff MacdonaldModerator]

Those are beautiful drums, I am really impressed with Tama, especially the Superstar line - are yours the the hyperdrive toms. Is the snare a 5.5x14? I may have to get a similar kit, the short stack toms sounds really great.

[Lem MeadorModerator]

I'm really perplexed about my next move these days. I have two 8 channel Presonus mic-pre that have served me well the past 10 years, recording bands live and on location in various venues. I'm now building out my home studio and trying to up my game with better processing during tracking. I've always used the Presonus pre's straight into Logic and then applied everything in mix, but I have learned - the hard way - DOH! - that it really helps to have some light compression and limiting on the front side for tracking. I borrowed an inexpensive DBX unit and found that my tracking levels were much, much better with a vocalist that has a very dynamic range. BIG voice, that woman has.

-- So, my quandary: Do I buy analogue gear, like DBX's, 1073 mic pres and 1176 limiters like Warren uses, or, do I go down the Apollo route so that I can apply whatever plugin I want for monitoring and tracking.

Appreciate all ideas and suggestions and experience.

[Guido tum SudenKeymaster]

Hi Lem,

difficult. We are talking a lot of money here. I do have my SPL Channel One and use it for recording almost every single instrument. But buying equipment for 16 channels?

There are DAWs that allow using plugins while recording. In Logic for instance you can create Input Channel Strips in the Environment. It's possible in ProTools too, I think.
On the other hand you can emulate the tracking step in you DAW.
Record all the tracks. Then use typical tracking plugins and add Console Emulation and/or Tape Emulation plugins (have a look at Airwindows for a very good inexpensive console emulation even when it's not a specific one). At then end print all the tracks.
Open a new document and start mixing with your "analog recorded" tracks.

Guido

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