• This topic has 5 replies, 3 voices, and was last updated 7 years ago by John Brandt.
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  • #5538
    Rich Westphal
    Participant

      Hi John !!! What an honor, and thank you for taking the time, and going out of your way to help 😀
      I am at a point where I can choose between a room “10’3″x12’1″ or a room 12’5″x26’3″, both 8’1/2” tall. Both rectangular.
      My thought is either would really be ok for me. But this leaves me with realworld issues, I’ve not ever dealt with personal. Closest thing would be guessing at what adjustments I need to make for translation out of the room, lol,

      1) Would It be better, or basically equally similar, to choose one room over the other?
      Meaning, the end result will be about the same, but using the smaller room would mean less cost.
      Are both rooms small enough that they will only reach the same level of limits?

      2) Treatment for the larger room would probably cost more. but would I gain a better area to mix in ?

      3) At what point will I probably see I have reached the best percentage of controlling the room.
      I mean my budget is not much at all, lol,,, and to me, a 10% gain is important. But 10% of a room that is 75% dialed in, is 7.5% better, but from what I’ve read at a much higher cost, even 4 times the cost to get to the 75%…

      4) Should I just do some taming, then find my sweet spot for speakers / sub, and call it good ?

      5) Should I avoid a sub? Even though it would be only giving me 80Hz and below, when checking the low end,,,

      6) What is your opinion of using EQ to get close to the correction, in combination with treatment, and then drop the EQ at mixdown stage ?
      To me this EQ technique might help but does it affect reverbs and delays ? Playing live for years, I’ve always hear the “room” in the club with/without people, and the need for and term named “headroom”, lol,,, It wasn’t just volume that was affected with a crowd of frequency body blocking absorbing people, lol,,,

      – I’ve heard many ways and have been reading into the many examples and tools found online… Reading and following long expensive projects in forums. Lots of info over the last 3 yrs, but I have no real experience with this,,,
      Main thing I see is they do reach a point where they are happy with their sound, and get good translation out of the room…

      I couldn't spend 10k, and just spend 1k on treatment, lol,,, I do have some decent cheap monitors, JBL SLR 305’s, and some much better Presonus Scepter 8’s with crossover control to the Presonus Temblor T10 sub…
      According to Hoyle (lol) I should plan on spending as much in treatment as my equipment, lol,,, but that's just not possible right now,,, I have a bit of equipment...
      The spaces are in my house, sound proof is not an issue.
      Recording could be in another room, with portable GOBO panels I can place for control, or in the mixing room as well…
      Which room and good translation is my current issue and project,,, I literally just started work in the smaller room about a week or so ago… It could be left as a decent bedroom or office if you suggest I would be better off in the larger room.

      I'm also planning a build for a desk I will try to build myself... I still have a nice table saw, scroll saw, sanders, ext... I'll be slow at it and probably ask some friends for help where needed. Unfortunately I have time...
      Many hobbies I've had through the years. lol,,, Just really need to make this hobby a bit more than just a hobby, lol.

      A short brief bit of history of myself, why I want to do this,,, lol
      I’m a custom automotive painter 30+ yrs for the RV / Commercial vehicle industry, vans, trucks, rv’s, cars, ext… And a guitar player since I was 5 yrs old, lol,,, Played in my first band and audience when I was 13,,, I broke my back at work about 3+ yrs ago, and 2+ yrs ago was told I can not return to work due to permanent nerve damage. I highly doubt I will ever play on stage again, but music takes us many places. We just have to listen better, lol…
      So,,, this is where I am, and what I have, lol,,, It started as a personal project room for myself about 5yrs ago. But I do ok mixing/recording, and thought maybe I can find this to be my next career for another 20 yrs, modestly at best, gulp’? Hahaha
      I’m one that just never really gives up,,, but I’m learning to accept a lot of things, as well as learning more about making music, lol.
      I’m at a point where I need to ask questions and try not to make too many mistakes, lol.

      This is just an awesome coincidence. I will be ready to try and place treatment when it arrives in about 2 weeks, lol,,, And one I will be happy to be advantages of,,,!!!
      I’ve seen your work, only in pictures, lol, but they are just amazingly beautiful rooms.
      Thank you for any suggestions and considerations to all or one of my concerns, lol,,,

      Rich

      #5555
      John Brandt
      Participant

        Rich,

        First off, the smaller room is a fail. it does not meet the minimum volume requirements for a critical listening room. The larger, however, will do nicely with 2770 cubic feet. The modal spread is decent and if you can tweak the length slightly, you could meet The Bonello Distribution critera down to 20 Hz. As it is, you only have good modal dist down to the 40 Hz 1/3rd octave band...

        YOU can DIY your own treatment and you SHOULD treat five of the six room surfaces!

        The sweet spot won't be sweet without substantial treatment, well unless you want to wear your speakers like headphones. 😉 - I'm joking. 😛

        But seriously, you will need substantial trapping and reflection control - just for STARTERS! As you can afford it, build complete 'treatment walls'.

        Today more and more CDs (and subsequent hit records) are recorded in a home situation. The only problem that I have with the typical home studio is that it is usually NOT a studio, but a collection of studio equipment. In order for you to have a real studio, one that actually does the job of a studio, you must place your equipment in a room where it can function as designed. This means an acoustically treated and accurate critical listening room.

        Besides, a well-treated room is so much more fun!

        Take your time and get the trapping that you need installed. This can be as cheap as R-19 building fiberglass from Home Depot! As your skills building treatment improve, you can try your hand at some membrane types and diffusors. But please note that treatment placement is not arbitrary. It is important to know what you NEED here or there because Form Follows Function. 😉 - And certain devices don't function well in certain spaces. That said; you really cant' go wrong building broadband absorption. You really can not have too much trapping.

        Desk building: Be careful NOT to copy commercial desks! For example; small home studios should NEVER buy or build a look-alike Argossy or Sterling desk! These huge monsters are mainly used in Mastering rooms of very decent size. If they are too close to the main speakers, bad reflections/diffraction will result. - And never, ever, ever put your speakers on the desk or on the bridge of the console! (Sorry Warren) LOL!

        Cheers,
        John

        #5810
        Jared Sherman
        Participant

          What is the minimum volume requirement for a critical listening room and what is that number derived from?

          #5849
          John Brandt
          Participant

            Jared,

            I have recommended 1500 cubic feet (42 cubic meters) as the minimum requirement for any decent control room since F. Alton Everest wrote it in his book "Master Handbook of Acoustics" in 1982. This volume requirement is based on the minimum required modal activity in an enclosure, within the wave region for MUSIC production.
            see Chapter 19
            "Room Size
            Problems are inevitable if sound is recorded or reproduced in spaces that are too small. Gilford states that studio volumes less than approximately 1,500 cu ft are so prone to sound coloration that they are impractical. Rooms smaller than this produce sparse modal frequencies with exaggerated spacings, which are the source of audible distortions."
            (Gilford, C.L.S., The Acoustic Design of Talks Studios and Listening Rooms, Proc. Inst. Elect. Engrs., 106, Part B, 27 (May 1959), 245-258. Reprinted in J. Audio Eng. Soc., 27, 1/2 (1979) 17-31.)

            This has been know for quite some time but we keep trying the break the laws of physics as Scotty kept warning Jim...

            Cheers,
            John

            #5860
            Rich Westphal
            Participant

              John,

              Thank you for taking the time to help and suggest the best scenario for me...
              I am working with GIK Acoustics for treatments so far,,, Ordered the day after your response, lol...

              Asking the questions here and then reading them back, and absorbing your input, gave me the understanding of what I should do is stay real with what I "need"... I can't get exactly what I want right now and using the larger room, lol, but I do have the capability to lengthen the room just a bit, up to 6 more feet,,, So it's nice to know I do have a space that is more ideal then the smaller room,,, All in due time.
              I also found I needed to add the closet that spans the wall behind me. It gives the room 3 more feet of depth, and brings it to 15'1" x 10'3", which just barely makes the minimum room size, lol,,,

              I also have 2 windows that need curtains. I am grabbing some blankets made with sound absorbing fivers from VocalBooth to go,,, It will help just a little and still look somewhat like a curtain. Purchasing a set of 6 bundle just a smarter purchase and plan to hang one in front of the door. Going to attach a small pulley set up to pull the blanket away from the door when opening, lol... The others can help with the back wall I'm thinking... I might even just use them to hide the insulation rolls as you suggested in the interview to help with the lower mid frequencies...
              A lot of trial and error to take place soon, lol,,,

              The desk will not be a copy of a huge argosy, lol... But it will have a touch monitor to go with Studio One 3 DAW and the center of the desk will have my CS18AI. I'm also building my own speaker stands, and have isoacoustics for the monitors and sub.

              Also I'm keeping in mind what ever I purchase now, for it to be useful in the other room eventually. Ideal situations will need to grow as I grow,,, Worse case scenario I get a great space to record my own music, lol,,, I also have a bedroom about the same size behind this smaller room I'm choosing for now, to record in. I won't start on it for another 2 months...

              Thank you for all the tools and info on your site as well... Adding them to my collective information, lol,,
              And don't be surprised if I send you an email or two, lol,,, You just know to much, lol,,,

              Thanks John,,, Forever forward !!! No matter how far we get set back,,, lol,,,

              Rich

              #5896
              John Brandt
              Participant

                Rich,

                Thanks so much!

                Keep on Rockin'!
                Cheers,
                John

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