Academy Dashboard Forum Production Mixing Collapsing the bottom end to mono: always a good idea?

Tagged: , ,

  • This topic has 9 replies, 4 voices, and was last updated 4 years ago by Tony Loignon.
Viewing 10 posts - 1 through 10 (of 10 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #62628
    Erik Duijs
    Participant

      Often it is suggested to collapse low frequencies to mono by default, often even on the master bus.
      Personally I think this is a bad idea as general 'rule of thumb' when mixing; I'd never collapse all the the low end to mono if it's not necessary, and I believe usually it is not.

      So why is this often encouraged?
      1) There is very little stereo information in the bottom end
      2) Audio systems with a sub will collapse the bottom end to mono anyway
      3) There can be phase cancellation issues there that you can actually see on your L/R correlation meter
      4) The bottom end sounds more punchy when it's mono
      5) You can do more extreme panning without it sounding weird on earphones

      That's the argumentation I could find and this is what I think about these points:
      1) While this is true, it's not 100% true. In my experience you CAN lose something in the stereo image if you just collapse everything to mono in the low end. For example if there's low-end ambiance going on, it can sound awesome on headphones.
      2) This is also true, but most audio systems don't have a sub. Perhaps it's more a matter of making your mix work with a mono sub rather than automatically adding more filtering and processing just to be safe. You can check by just listening to your mix in full mono; why do we need to do more?
      3) If you're trying to fix that with collapsing your low-end to mono, you actually aren't. Sure, the L/R correlation meter won't show the issue anymore but that's just because the damage is already done before hitting the L/R correlation meter (it simply won't detect the real issue anymore); you probably need to do something else to fix the actual problem.
      4) I think the bottom end sounds more punchy when it works in mono, but not necessarily *because* it is mono. Again, you can just check by just checking your mix in full mono.
      5) Sure, if you pan a bassguitar left and a guitar right, it is unlistenable on headphones. In such cases, collapsing the low-end to mono will definitely work. But how many times do you actually want to do that? This is a corner case.

      Sure, kick and bass in the center and those should sound good everywhere, I get that. But there's a bit more going on in the low-end. Personally when I try to enforce a mono bottom-end, it seems like a concession not worth making when I'm listening with earphones or my monitors. Don't fix what isn't broken?

      This (rambling) post is not meant to claim that I know better: I'm just quite confused about the subject and why the consensus seems to be that a mono bottom-end is always better.

      Cheers,
      Erik

      #62736
      face (chris) Janton
      Participant

        mono bottom end works better with vinyl (so I have heard)

        when you collapse the bottom end to mono (in the past, currently) how do you do this?

        I have a plugin from Boz Digital Labs - Mongoose - that I use to mono-ize mixes sometimes. The typical track that I do this to is live recordings with everything in the same room. I tend to set the crossover at about 250 Hz, and I "widen" the highs to about 150%.

        It sounds more like "live" than not.

        #62746
        Erik Duijs
        Participant

          Hi Chris, thanks for the reply.

          I've heard about mongoose, it seems very useful.
          When I collapse low-end to mono I use a M/S EQ and roll off the bottom end on the side, not 100% sure if that's the same thing. But I do it when wide L/R panning of different instruments sounds weird on headphones.

          However when you do it on an entire mix, do you never feel like you're missing something?
          There have been cases where I tried it and some lower end ambiance got clearly lost, which is why I'm a bit confused about the notion that the bottom end should always be (collapsed to) mono. Maybe I should experiment a bit more with it.

          Regarding vinyl, my understanding is that it's done because the stylus of a record player can skip (bounce out of the groove) if the bottom end is stereo; not necessarily because it sounds better.

          Cheers,
          Erik

          #62749
          face (chris) Janton
          Participant

            M/S EQ would effectively do the same thing. Levels get tricky. Mongoose has a gain knob for both sides of the crossover.

            I hardly ever use Mongoose anything other than live performances where there is no problem with ambient low end information - many microphones, a whole lot of bleed. It sounds better (to me, and the band) if I focus the low end and widen up the instruments and voices a bit.

            Right on the vinyl. It doesn't sound better, it has special needs.

            Sculpting with M/S EQ is probably way more flexible.

            #62797
            face (chris) Janton
            Participant

              Speaking of Mongoose - I saw this quickie sale on the Facebook that I never visit...

              https://www.bozdigitallabs.com/product/mongoose/?fbclid=IwAR1lDsdKnI3eE0dDWRhO43f19JakK9pCgl2D0HYG3fZrhMRNyDLWVODiGhE

              $19 for the plugin...

              #62807
              Erik Duijs
              Participant

                Hey, thanks for the heads-up 🙂
                Unfortunately I missed it....

                #63460
                Mike Morrison
                Participant

                  Hey Erik, it looks like Mongoose is available for $19 again right on the Boz site if you're interested.
                  https://www.bozdigitallabs.com/product/mongoose/

                  Did you happen to see Warren's interview with Luca Pretolesi and Scotty Banks? Some really interesting discussion going on there about collapsing parts of the frequency range to mono in dance music and also rock and metal.

                  • This reply was modified 4 years ago by Mike Morrison.
                  #63496
                  Erik Duijs
                  Participant

                    Hey Mike, thanks for the heads-up about Mongoose! I just picked it up for $19 🙂

                    Today I also watched Warren's video. Quite interesting how we see different points of view about the subject where Luca tends to collapse the low-end (and also the top-end if I understood correctly), while Scotty seemed to favour not doing that although he will do it if the client wants things louder (again, if I understood correctly).
                    I will definitely experiment with these things more and Mongoose is probably going to help there, but at the moment I feel I'm generally more in line with Scotty's view point.

                    Cheers,
                    Erik

                    #65546
                    Mike Morrison
                    Participant

                      Just wanted to drop a follow-up production note. . .

                      A lot of the discussion we had in this thread was mix related, but last week I had to track a vocal session and the producer had some low-end bass that was split L/R. In headphones it was pretty distracting, so I dropped Mongoose on it and mono-ized it from ~350Hz down and it helped the artist lock right into the track.

                      Not limited to just vocal tracking, of course, but that was an unexpected real-world use that came up here. Should be handy for any kind of overdubs when bass is split L/R but needs to be in the headphone mix.

                      #65635
                      Tony Loignon
                      Participant

                        I use Brainworx's Hybrid EQ V2. It has a mono maker knob that sets your crossover freq.

                        https://www.plugin-alliance.com/en/products/bx_hybrid_v2.html

                      Viewing 10 posts - 1 through 10 (of 10 total)
                      • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.